Wednesday, May 04, 2016

So, I was on YahooNews today, and saw this Chicago Tribune Article in my Newsfeed.

An ugly war, seen through the lens of the Vietnamese by Dahleen Glanton

...and after reading it, I felt the urge to respond.

I know, I know.  It's a losing battle trying to respond to everything wrong on the Internet.  But indulge me on this one.  It's an interesting case study in the kind of propaganda we Americans are subjected to day in and day out through our media.

First of all:
On a recent visit to Vietnam, I followed the path of the war — from Hanoi to Danang to Ho Chi Minh City. In rural towns in the North, the Vietnamese flag — a red banner with a single gold star — waves from pole after pole along busy streets. In the South, a 23-foot-tall bronze statue of former President Ho Chi Minh stands in a downtown square in the city that was once called Saigon.
For anyone who might have any doubts about the outcome of the war, the message throughout Vietnam was clear: The Communists won.

The publication date on this article was May 2nd.  It's unclear when the actual trip took place, but let's assume she wrote this article up just as she was coming off of the trip that she's writing about.
The two days preceding May 2nd were April 30th (the anniversary of the re-unification of Vietnam) and May 1st (International Communist Holiday).  If ever there is a time when the Communist flags are going to be out in full force, this is it.
For comparison's sake, imagine a visitor going to the United States during the week of the 4th of July, and then writing about all the American Flags they saw everywhere.
By the way, as a side note, many visitors to the United States actually do pick up on exactly this--how prevalent the American flag is everywhere you go.  It's not actually like this in all other countries, so it's something that people always remark upon when they visit the United States.  I've had several friends (British, Japanese, Australians, Canadians) make comments to me about how they were so surprised by the prevalence of the American Flag everywhere during their visits to the United States.

So you get what I'm saying here.  For an American to comment on this, as some sort of unique quirk that the crazy communists have, is a bit rich.

Moving on...
In the 40 years since the war ended, most Americans have moved on. Unless you lost a loved one — there were nearly 60,000 American fatalities — or know a veteran suffering in the aftermath, Vietnam has been filed away as ancient history. It has taken a back seat to the more recent conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan.
That is not the case in Vietnam. The civil war that dragged on for 21 years is ingrained in the country's cultural and political landscape. And telling the story has become an industry.
Yes, this is true enough.  Although at least some of this obsession with Vietnam War history as tourism is demand driven.  Every day thousands of backpackers arrive in Vietnam, almost all of whom have no knowledge or interest in Vietnam's 2,000 year old history other than the American War they've seen in the movies.  So Vietnam caters to the tourists' expectations.
Moving on...

From the Cu Chi tunnels, used as hiding spots and supply routes by Viet Cong soldiers, to the "Hanoi Hilton" prison, where a future U.S. senator named John McCain was among those held as prisoners of war, the Vietnamese government makes a faulty case against good and evil. According to its officials, the captured U.S. pilots were treated like guests at a country club.
One of the interesting little tidbits I picked up from Vietnam: The Ten Thousand Day War is that there is debate among the captured U.S. pilots themselves as to whether or not their treatment constituted torture.  Some of them feel that they were tortured, but others maintain that they were treated a bit rough at times, but they were certainly not systematically tortured in any fashion.
In the government-run War Remnants Museum in Ho Chi Minh City, America is portrayed as the archenemy of the Vietnamese people. The exhibits depict U.S. soldiers as heartless villains — even criminals — whose sole mission was to slaughter families, torture innocent villagers and spread ruin across the region.
What?  You mean they don't see us as pure hearted defenders of liberty and freedom?  Why, wherever did they get that impression?


Moving on to the next part of the article:

Displayed among the three floors are remnants of the weapons used by U.S. troops: tanks, missiles, bombs and machine guns. There are life-size pictures of children missing limbs, born without eyes or with tumors covering their faces — the result of Agent Orange, used by the U.S. military to clear foliage in the jungle where the fighting occurred.
But perhaps one of the most startling photographs is that of a young, gun-wielding U.S. soldier standing over the decapitated remains of Vietnamese bodies.
I realized that much of the presentation was just propaganda. Yet my initial reaction was shame. I lowered my head and silently cried.

The phrase "just propaganda" is a loaded phrase.  In one sense, it's true because the War Remnants Museum is guilty of sins of omission.   There is nothing there about the atrocities committed by the Communists (like the Hue Massacre (W)). Sins of omission are of course a form of propaganda.
But in another sense, it's denigrating the exhibits in the museum to label them as "just propaganda" . It makes it sound as if their truth value is questionable.  But it's not.  Everything documented in that museum happened.  Agent Orange happened.  The massacres happened.  The bombings happened.

Continuing to quote from the article, the very next line is:
Then I remembered that these were simply boys, far from home, fighting a war that had no rules.
The conjunction "Then" here is problematic, because it implies a logical progression from completed action to subsequent action.  It reads as if the author is saying "Confronted with photographic evidence of the massacres my country perpetrated, I initially gave in to the impulse to feel shame and sorrow, but THEN I remembered that the soldiers were simply boys far from home, and the feelings of shame vanished."
That is what she's saying here, no?

It is undoubtedly true that the Vietnam War was a war without rules.  But whose fault was that?  When the US army had instituted free fire zones, and started massacring villages, undoubtedly the war was operating without any rules.
But having begun to fight a war without rules, the fact that there were no rules then becomes the excuse?

The My Lai massacre, for example, was not an example of soldiers simply getting out of hand in a war without rules.  It was a massacre lead by the officers.  Officers Captain Medina and Lieutenant Calley were on the ground with the men, ordering them to conduct the massacre.



In other cases, it was clear that discipline broke down among the ranks.  But this has never historically been accepted as an excuse.  For example the Japanese General Masaharu Homma (W) tried to stop the atrocities committed by his troops in the Philippines, but was unable to do so as discipline broke down.  This was not accepted as an excuse, and he was executed by the Americans as a War Criminal.

Moving on, a little bit further down the page Dahleen Glanton writes:

For so many reasons, Vietnam was a war that was impossible for America to win. But isn't freedom worth fighting for?
Oh, where to begin with this one?
First of all, the people living in a country have the freedom to choose their own form of government.  There's no freedom more basic than that.
Secondly, the government in Saigon was never free or democratic.  The government changed frequently in Saigon during the course of the war because of various coups, but it was never a democracy, and it did not allow freedom of speech or freedom of expression.  The Saigon Governments were a series of increasingly unstable military dictatorships that would never have lasted if they hadn't been propped up the United States military.
Thirdly, if you accept that "freedom is worth fighting for" as a justification for getting into foreign wars, then there are all sorts of despotic regimes all around the world that the United States would have to go and overthrow.
The tourist attractions might tell one story, but outside, the impoverished living conditions of many Vietnam people tell another.
Ah gee, a third world country has impoverished living conditions.  Imagine that.  If communism was so great, why didn't Vietnam magically transform into a first world country with American standards of living?  Huh?  Huh?  Answer me that, communism!

In point of fact, Vietnam has made remarkable progress towards modernization the past 30 years.  It's much more advanced than it's neighbors in Laos and Cambodia.  There are, to be sure, still areas of poverty in the countryside, and Dahleen Glanton is going to harp on this for the rest of her article.  But there's also been remarkable progress.

Also, although Dahleen Glanton completely neglects this in her article, some of the problems Vietnam has had overcoming poverty are directly attributable to the massive American bombings.  To this day large parts of the center of Vietnam can not be farmed or built upon because of all the unexploded American bombs buried in the soil.

Next, Dahleen Glanton writes:

During my two weeks in the country, the Vietnamese people I met were kind and welcoming. Without doubt, young people in Vietnam had been taught about the war from the government's perspective. Schoolchildren surely were brought to the museums on field trips.
Why didn't they seem to hate Americans?
The answer, it occurred to me, is that the younger generation isn't buying the message that the government is selling.
First of all, it's always problematic when you describe the opinions of a whole nation of people as if they were a monolithic entity.  Everyone does it, I know, but it's wrong.  Some young Vietnamese people hate their government, some people love it.  Some young Vietnamese are very cynical of the official communist story of the war, some of them buy into it completely.  Some of them are conservative, some of them are liberal.  In short, you have the same diversity of opinion in Vietnam that you would have in any other country.

It is true that Vietnamese people don't hate Americans.  In fact they're very friendly and welcoming to American visitors.  But in my experience, there is no connection between their view of history and their attitude towards Americans.  Some of my best Vietnamese friends have completely accepted the communist version of the war history, but they're also able to understand that individual members of a country do not share the collective guilt for the actions of their government officials.
In Vietnam, the government controls the media — from television to radio to print. The Internet is regulated and censored. Officially, social media are off-limits.
Not true.  Not true at all.  I'm writing this blog post right now from within Vietnam.
But young people know how to get around the rules. Facebook and Google are very popular, particularly among the educated.
Yes, Google and Facebook are very popular in Vietnam.  But notice how she makes it sound like this is true inspite of government laws.  Currently there are no laws prohibiting use of Facebook or Google.
The canals and rivers flowing to the Mekong Delta are polluted and strewn with rubbish. The river water is undrinkable and even the rats, which are considered a delicacy by some Vietnamese, are unfit to eat.
Okay, this is true but...This is true of a lot of regions under a number of different governments.   There are plenty of places in the United States where the river water is undrinkable.  That's why we have treatment plants for our drinking water.
The fact that the Mekong is strewn with rubbish is a societal problem.  It's because individual Vietnamese people are making the choice to throw their rubbish in the river.  It's not because of an evil communist government ordering everyone to throw their rubbish in the Mekong.  If anything, it's a problem from lack of government action, not because of government oppression.
Depending on how poor the family is, the government provides a one-time stipend of up to $10,000 to find better housing. But an apartment in the city costs twice that amount. It is cheaper to live on the banks of the river in the city. Otherwise, they must stay in the countryside, where education and jobs are even harder to come by.
Here I must admit that I don't know anything about the specifics of what she's talking about.  Given how shoddily this whole piece is researched, and how much she gets wrong, I wouldn't be surprised if the details of what she's saying here turned out to be not as she is presenting them.
But for the sake of argument let's go with her version.
Given that housing prices in Saigon are much cheaper than they are back in America, $10,000 actually strikes me as quite generous.  I pay $450 per month, and almost all of my Vietnamese friends tell me I'm paying triple what a normal Vietnamese person pays for rent.  But even given my exorbitant apartment, I could pay my rent for 22 months with $10,000.
Secondly, note once again that what she's complaining about is not tyrannical Communist governance.  She's complaining about the problems of free-market capitalism here, and complaining that the government is not intervening enough to solve the problems of capitalism.  In other words, she's complaining that the Communist government of Vietnam isn't Communist enough.
These problems can't be blamed on the Americans. These are visible failures that the Communist regime cannot hide.
It would be wrong to think that the Vietnamese people don't love their country. They do.
But when it comes to the two-decade war, not everyone sees a clear winner. This was a war in which everyone lost, and its ramifications continue to haunt.
Oh come on!  This is the best you could come up with to describe the failures of communism?  You can go to any country in the world and find poor people who can't afford housing.  Vietnam is a third world country.  Of course it's going to have these problems.

Look, if you want to find problems in Vietnam, you can find them.  The same way you can go to any country in the world and write about how the poor are getting a raw deal, or how government programs aren't working perfectly, or how the rivers are polluted.
But to use this to imply that the wrong side won the war is just lazy propaganda.

And one last point: Both Dahleen Glanton in her article, and me in this rebuttal, have been using the word "communism" as synonymous with the Vietnamese style of government.  But just for the sake of accuracy, I should state that Vietnam abandoned Communist economics back in 1986 (W).  It's essentially now a capitalist economy in a one party state bureaucracy (similar to modern day China).

12 comments:

Futami-chan said...

Miss Glanton does resemble my parents, I'm sure she would make a good parent some day.

Futami-chan said...
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Futami-chan said...

2. A lot of Vietnamese would be weirded out by the name "American war" too. True, we call that "resistance war against America" and other lengthier or shorter names. Still I wonder where does the "American war" name came from. Perhaps this is something with the English language, or some American academics did something weird, or some Vietnamese back then told Americans something weird.
Same can be said about "the revolution" and "the communist revolution". The impression the official history gives is that the only event that had any meaning of revolution in Vietnam is "the August revolution" - when people flipped off the Japanese. That event is already hard to remember enough since people hardly figure out whatever happened that made it so significant other than "my history book teaches me it so it must be important".

3. McCain along with John Kerry have very favorable impressions on Vietnamese state affliated media. Mostly because they helped with... stuff, one book I read recounted a story by a Vietnamese diplomat who asked McCain some knowledge of how the U.S works so Vietnam can make some deals about some fish trading stuff. I didn't know how righteous McCain has been and how he actually has some beef with us.
Tangentially, if you told Vietnamese people that "Kissinger is a very respectable politician in the U.S", most Vietnamese would just awe - this is to say Kissinger being a vile man is mostly a Western knowledge. On my history textbooks, only Johnson and Nixon got namecalled as "vile".

4. If people want to make an issue with some Vietnamese history villifying Americans, they should also make an issue with those textbooks villifying Chinese. Keep in mind perhaps 80% of Vietnamese history being taught is "Chinese invaded us and did cruel things". Americans as far as I can remember is villified as much as the French. And besides, the passages that describe Americans doing horrendous things (alongside the puppet regime) are described very summarily. I would say they are much much less vicious than what Western media love to say about my country on a daily basis.
Not to even mention I just checked the reformed textbooks: all the lessons now have very neutral tone, and omit many stuff that portray the U.S in a bad light. If anything the new history textbooks even manage to make the U.S very saintly (e.g. mention of American occupation in Japan, how McArthur[1] was loved by Japanese people, mention of increasing trade between Vietnam and U.S).
Really something to make everything about yourself - when you are just treated on textbooks as the French with airplanes, and the French are treated as Chinese with guns.

[1] I almost mistyped this dude as McCarthy lmao.

Futami-chan said...
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Futami-chan said...

7. Why don't Vietnamese hate Americans? I don't know? Why don't Americans hate Germans? Why don't Chinese hate Japanese - oh wait they do, but they also buy lots of h*ntai... Why don't Russians hate Mongols?

I see this question all the time and there have been many possible answers. But let me offer some new answers that I have never really seen appeared anywhere: We don't even know who you are.

I mean isn't this the same in the West? Some thought Asia was a country, some think Asia is too huge to mean anything, some can't distinguish Korea with Japan.

Now the question should be: how do you think a Vietnamese student can distinguish an American with a French?

Many years ago I was surprised when I saw on the world map where the UK - turned out it's situated way very far from the U.S!!! Before that I just kind of figured the UK to the U.S should be something like Taiwan or Shanghai to China - since the paired label US/UK gets thrown around constantly. I mean after all US and UK both speak the same language, and every country only has one language.
...or so I thought at the time.

Although I guess it should be easy to say what kind of a country the U.S is like? Even primary school children can say: it's the country that makes stuff like Harry Potter novels and my Samsung phones! Am I right?!
(...give the kids some points for mentioning the U.S makes gun action movies at least)

This should answer another plethora number of questions as well: why Vietnamese are surprised South Africans and other people can speak English, why Vietnamese don't pay as much money to English teachers who have no white skin, blah blah.

But let me digress and offer another possible answer to the main question: Imagine a bunch of meteors falling on your head from outer space - do you hate the meteors for what they did to you?
Or some people from some village throw rocks to you, do you hate the entire village?

To mention the Vietnamese narrative by the way: what people love to talk to ourselves, at least on official media, is how Vietnamese people by nature are very humane and forgiving - "đánh kẻ chạy đi, không đánh người chạy lại", which means to say we are forgiving, or can also be used to teach that we shouldn't have an issue with people who are no longer making an issue with us. Of course there are questions to be pondered given the anti-China stuff, but well...

Futami-chan said...

8. Storytelling time: When I was young I was watching on TV news of reconciliation after the war's legacy. I was fed the official history which made me felt very patriotic. I however had skepticism toward the history, and later on even distrusted Vietnamese sources and media once I got to read English.
I however have never really gone to the extent of thinking of the government as some vile evils that hide the truths. People online and some relatives around me however back then loved making snarky remarks about the government. Like they knew some truths about the government that made them smug, and somehow they are holier than thou. I have always hated that.
So well, true that some don't buy what the government has to say, and even insult people who do - online at least. Most of these people tend to happen to be those that have exposure to Westerners and Western media.
And not just the government, they love to look down on their own countrymen for being stupid and backwards.
They are a minority however.
Speaking of one such peculiar case, I had a dormmate who loved to make snarky remarks about the official history and all that jazz. There are some stories I could tell here, about how ignorant (or at least problematic) despite loving to be snarky himself. But anyway he happened to be a fan of Trump and is very vocal about all that tough sounding sh1ts - when Trump lost the 2nd election, I was secretly breathing a sigh of relief, he on the other hand however made a visibly disappointed face. Way too usually I have to wonder what do they have to idolize about the U.S despite idolizing Trump themselves - on the internet there's a recurrence of online netizens on some corners insulting those that say a single tiny critical stuff about the U.S.

Part of the reason I tend to get defensive about these stuff is perhaps due to my own affection for the official curriculum, and old communistic people - they are endearing to me somehow. True, some of those old people are pretty idiotic, some being P.E. teachers (idk why but most P.E. teachers tend to be them, seem to be military-related people) who love to spout smug stuff like "we don't have school shootings like those capitalist countries" - they are still every endearing to me nevertheless.

Futami-chan said...

9. Such a tight governmental control of the media and internet that news outlets now even spout pro-China stuff (some hearsay has it that some Chinese did bought some articles on VNExpress), spout incoherent Western craps like they are translated from ChatGPT (I'm looking at you ZingNews), that outlets considered "reactionary" even beam themselves on the first tab of my phone, that some searches on Google so easily proned to yield HRW craps that I no longer want to search stuff about my country using the wrong keywords, that "reactionary" Youtube channels got about a million views per video.
10. I assume the part she mentioned "a one-time stipend of up to $10,000" is about the compensation a family got when the state takes their lands or "giải tỏa đất đai", charitably interpreting if not outright treating this as made-up stuff, unless this is actually true but I just happen to be ignorant of it.
...which is actually very ironic since she seems to actually end up painting a more favorable image of the government than if she didn't write at all.
Maybe I'm reading that passage out of context (I only read your post, not the direct article and never will), but I'm not sure what to even make out of that. Well, tell me of a government that knows how to deal with the problem of eternal poverty.
11. Erm, since when did we blame our problems on Americans? Admittedly the textbooks did attribute some faults on the U.S... although I hope it's not really controversial that you are not making a lot of money out of foreign trade when you are sanctioned a lot, or when a bomb is dropped on your house you can't exactly spend your money on S&P 500.
And since when did we hide our poverty?

I do admire the rhetorical tricks she pulled under her sleeve. Although if you truly had anything to say, you wouldn't really have any need for moral posturing.
This does make you want to ponder the future of journalism - on Vietnamese internet we do have some sayings like "nhỏ không học lớn đi làm nhà báo", which means "young no study old become a journalist" (which channels a Confucian saying); "3 môn 9 điểm", which has double meaning and can mean "each university entrance subject got the excellent score 9/10" or "sum of all 3 subjects is 9/30".
I am very optimistic for the future demands of the market however. I think journalism in the future shall no longer talk about factuality, but shall talk more about people's opinions on stuff they read second-handedly.

Futami-chan said...

12. So "moved on" that I see the mention of the Vietnam war constantly on Reddit, Hackernews, and several other websites. Seriously I personally do not like the subject at all, the average Vietnamese once exposed to the non chest-thumping narrative of the war would likely want to steer away from it. Yet I keep seeing threads and comments in English love getting defensive and other nasty craps. In some way more Americans actually know about the My Lai stuff more than the average Vietnamese do. Not because I felt uncomfortable and want to know if what "the other side" have been saying were true, I wouldn't bother myself to do some researches on the war.
By this logic, isn't it time for the West to stop making WWII movies and video games?

And on a tangential note not just the war, but I even see American politics on the anime website I frequent on as well. Not because of some loud mouths screeching about leftists and all that craps perhaps I would never have had to bother myself with all these boring Western craps that hardly make my life any more colorful and entertain me.

If you find my series of comments here dizziying then it's a good thing. I do not love to get defensive and bother with a subject that only makes me feel bad for way too many reasons, and not really entertaining to me even. What you feel once you read these comments are likely what I feel when I keep seeing all the stuff on English sites on a frequent basis. Now I have no place to play since people prefer to talk about Trump and virtue signal or make edgy but stupid comments rather than talk anime. I can't even make a single anime related judgement without some jackasses bringing real life stuff in.

Now that what I have to say pertaining to the post is done, I'm afraid I still have plenty to let out about the war per se. What the heck am I even doing now though? I wrote so many craps these comments must read pretty deranged now. At least I hope I shall never have any misgiving about the accursed war once I have let out on some internet corner.
Here are some last pretentious comments I hope should be finished enough:
(If you want to know my worldview these days: while karmic justice isn't really a thing, it's still karmic enough in a sense for the children of the bad people - when you are a bad person, even when you can get away with it, there's no way your own children would have it well: how you treat other people is how you treat your own children. It's not a fair enough karma, but still karmic enough.)
As I read on some interview book, Tarkovsky once mentioned how nonchalant the Germans were when they invaded Russia. The horrifying thing about the Germans wasn't that they were breathing out fires or wearing scary monster faces, but how normal they seemed and acted. Something like that.
Not being particular to anybody, but I have always found that unsettling among people. Vietnamese people sadly do have a lot of this.

Perhaps it is fate that I let out these craps right on the indepedence day over here.

Futami-chan said...

Addendum: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vTRSV70Cr0rbtXIU7xNR1AH4ynnvlW7fGNb637yWuVPv1H2BXn6dQ430rhU4yyH5Pu-bieVB3ueUBDT/pub

Joel Swagman said...

I've read all your comments with interest.
As you know, I can't possibly respond to everything. Each point is a discussion in itself. But even if I don't write out long responses, know that you've given me food for thought.

I do want to note for the record that I'm not particularly proud of this original 2016 post. It was an uncharitable reading of Dahleen Glanton, in which I tried to make each of her points look as bad as I could for the purposes of being able to easily rebut them. I also had only been in the country for a year at this point, and had no business portraying myself as an expert on Vietnam.

Futami-chan said...

Yeah, my points are not necessarily pertaining to her article or your post, I just wanted to let out whatever I had about the country and the war, some stuff that people seem to have misconceptions a lot all the time (this post just happens to be a convenient place, initially I just wanted to drop the snarky comment).

Actually, I just read her article and now the quotes are in more context. And well... I personally wouldn't have anything to retort against a disdainful view. The entire article is sloppy, which is perhaps the very point. I don't think you were being uncharitable, for the simple technical reason that she was spouting dislike more than spouting any point anyway.

Now it's harder to make anything out of the war now!

This may seem off-topic, but a bunch of many months ago some people online were spouting stuff like "Japanese weren't that good as made out" in the context of 2D culture (anime, manga). The sentiment, which I have to admit I did share (and vocally spouted myself before any of them even did), was that the impression people kept getting as to how Japan was supposed to be unsurpassable at the top of their craft isn't so much true - now that there are countless of Chinese game makers who can make just as well games with beautiful female characters that has always been thought of as a Japanese exclusivity (in so many ways in still remains true, but still...); not just that, in terms of gameplay Chinese games even surpassed the lazy and cheap cash-grabbing Japanese stuff. In many ways, the Japanese honed craft is more of a myth than a reality, even though they are very excellent at it. Anyway, it was hard for even fans like myself not to look down on Japan, when they didn't ever exactly try to repudiate the impression of how hot they have always been, and the incessant praises they have always received by the fans.

What Dahleen Glanton wants to implicitly convey in spirit, sadly (or not), are valid (I guess). Given that Soviet Communism turned out to be a much more sham than people have ever thought of it, what does the result of the war even amount to, given that the very victim country that once denounced the enemies now have to beg for breads and sausages? Perhaps the issue for most people wasn't that the communists were supposed to be evil (in practice, if Communism worked I suspect who they killed would have been a niche subject), but the issue was that they turned out to be mosquitos and ended up to be beggars now. When you are not supposed to be looked down on for being a burden, nobody wants to look up to you when you are paving no new path.

Another moral of the lesson is maybe if you do something excellently well, there shall always be due recognition - which I'm glad to see from Chinese people these days. Although, this doesn't even need to be said.

Futami-chan said...

>Now it's harder to make anything out of the war now!

Which means to say: I suspect most people, including her, hardly care enough about the war. Thus it is easy for them to spout whatever, about something they find to be more of a source of irritation, coming from a country they have more disdain than any positive feeling for. 

I suspect if I was an American, I would exactly think and feel just like she does - the difference would probably just be that I would go at length to do research to dig up stuff I can use to justify my own hate for the country. Like I already said I just don't find the need to care for the war, I can imagine what it's like going on with my day and hearing people around me nagging me constantly that "You are evil!" and try to guilt-trip me constantly just like that, even if I don't happen to think of my own country as the best or infallible at all.

And it would be more jarring to come to that very country, to see those very people acting all worshipful to you (and leeching from you) more than any harbor of hate. Just months ago I came across some Reddit post that mentioned how some American went to China and the attitude was far from any dislike that people or media around them seem to make out. And it just seems like whatever bad things you did don't seem to amount to much as people make out, in light of how they have more self-inflicted issues and are begging to be helped themselves.

Vietnam isn't exactly a country people would want to go out of their way to defend anyway. This isn't even a confession since I have always tried to be vocal about it: I extremely hate my country and its culture - I just get defensive at times all because I find people hate it for the wrong reasons. It's the sort of country that no matter how many economic improvements it has, its culture would still just stay horrendous. If I already found my own countrymen insufferable and unbearable to live with (and I live with them everyday), I don't see how foreigners can find them any amicable to try to understand and defend them. If the best one could muster is just that "they are not that bad".

Her point on how ingrained the war is is sloppy. But I was addressing (in the addendum) a strawman in bad faith too, and also misleadingly. She's right that the country makes too much of a deal from the war that hardly anybody can make anything out of it. For how they loved to portray it, they weren't exactly doing anything more than throwing cannon fodder and letting people endure all the disasters, until suddenly the enemy stopped fighting. It's far from anything that you would thump your chest about how hot you are. And has always been a political affair by nature.

You don't need to respond to these nonsense if you don't like to - I'm writing all these out of boredom (it all began out of nights of sleep deprivation, not that I have any care for the subject more than being forced to, to repeat the 12th point again). I would be more interested in what you have to say about Rand (if you do at all).