I Disagree with the British

Last week I was at a dinner party at a Japanese friend’s house. Some other foreigners were there as well, and during the dinner a few side conversations were going on. A Scottish friend was explaining to me the history of the Celts. “Scotland, Ireland, and Wales are all related,” he said. “When the Romans invaded, they pushed all the Celts back to the outlying areas. Later the Anglo-Saxons took over the old Roman colonies, which is why the Celt tribes are all on the edges.”

I didn’t know about this, and found it very interesting. “So historically the Irish, the Welsh, and the Scottish all originated from common Celt ancestors, and those boundaries were just created by the Romans?” I asked.

“Yes,” he said. “In fact not a lot of people know this, but Cornwall used to be separated country as well. But that eventually got taken over by England.”

“A pity you didn’t keep it separate,” I said. “Then you could have sneaked another team into the world cup.”

This apparently touched on a nerve. “Man, don’t even start,” he said. “We have four different world cup teams because it is four different countries. There are some people back home who would be really mad if they heard you. Just because we have an open boarder doesn’t mean we’re the same country. We are just as different as you and Canada are.”

This seemed to be going a bit far to me. “I’ll grant you that there are distinctions between Scotland and England,” I said. “But it’s not the same as Canada and the U.S.” And thus touched off a debate which carried most of the rest of the evening.

We debated the subject hotly all through the rest of the dinner party, probably being slightly rude to our hosts. At one point our Japanese hosts asked what we were arguing about, and I did my best to translate the discussion. “It appears there is some difference of opinion between British and Americans,” I said. “As to whether the U.K. is one country or a union of four different countries.” I did my best to summarize the arguments for both sides, and briefly brought our Japanese hosts into the discussion. But before too long the two of us were both off in our private discussion. We even argued all through the car ride home.

A few days later I was at the bar, and I was meeting some fellow English teachers. One of them, from England, was explaining to me about the rivalry between the Scottish and the English at his company. “You know it’s interesting you should mention that,” I said. “Just earlier this week someone from Scotland tried to convince me you guys are actually separate countries.” And boom, there went the whole debate again.

Believe it or not, I actually got in the same debate a 3rd time before the week was up. I was talking to another English friend, and he was saying he had been to 23 countries. “Wow!” I said. “I’ve only been to 5. And that includes my home country of America, and Canada, which is only 3 hours away from my house.”

“That’s OK,” he said. “I’m including Whales and Scotland in my list.” And there went the argument again.

Perhaps some of you have been in similar discussions. These Brits sure feel strongly about the four separate countries thing.

I hate to add up all the hours I spent debating this topic in total this week. I’d say perhaps 3 hours the first time, 2 the second, and maybe 1 hour during the last conversation. As with most long pointless conversations, we had each pretty much laid out our side in the first 15 minutes, and then the rest of the time was re-phrasing ourselves.

I argued that since the UK was under a single Queen, under a single parliament, had the same army, the same foreign policy, the same embassy, the same flag, and the same Olympic team, they weren’t really separate countries.

“But we have four separate World Cup teams,” someone said.

“That’s true,” I said. “I’ll grant you that. But I think the World Cup association is just humoring you. You don’t have four separate seats at the UN.”

The counter argument is that Scotland, England, and Whales have always been separate countries, and just joined together under an act of union for their mutual convenience. And, that each area has their own parliament and local laws.

“Ok,” says I, “You used to be separate countries, but you aren’t now. We have local state laws in the US. We don’t call ourselves separate countries.”

A large amount of this comes back to semantics and the definition of country. I was taught in my 8th grade civics class that national sovereignty, as well as the ability to conduct diplomacy, declare war, negotiate peace, and independently arrange trade with other nations is an important part of the definition of a country. “Otherwise it’s just regional autonomy,” I said. “You guys can call yourselves separate countries all you want. It’s just semantics.”

They view the definition of countries differently. Because Scotland, England and Wales were all separate countries in the past, because they have geographical (albeit open) boarders, and because they have distinct languages and culture separating each other, they are different countries. “They’ve always been separate countries,” someone said to me. “You can’t just say that a country doesn’t exist anymore just because they formed an act of union. Did India cease to be a separate country when it was ruled by the British?”

I of course argue that if historic cultures and nationalities make a country, then Northern Ireland is by all rights part of the same country as the Republic of Ireland.

The comparison is sometimes made with the European Union, which seems to be moving in the direction of a unified European Government. I point out that Europe split over the question of the Iraq war, but Scottish soldiers are now dying in Iraq because of a decision Tony Blair made.

“Yeah, the Scottish are really upset about it too,” someone said.

“See, that proves my point. If they were separate countries, they could have decided their own foreign policy.”

And round and round the discussion went. I guess I can’t possibly record everything that was said on either side. There were times when certain concessions were made. Someone once conceded that England and Scotland are not different countries in the same way Canada and the U.S. are different countries. I once conceded that comparing the four countries of the UK to the various states in the USA was unfair. But every time we came close to agreement, I pressed my point too far and we started arguing again.

In the end nothing was resolved and no one was convinced, but I feel very strongly about this. They're not 4 seperate countries.

Link of the Day
My friend Harrison has gotten an article published in Japan Visitor. Check it out here. (Bet you never thought you'd make Link of the Day Harrison, you old son of a bitch).

It's an article about Japanese cars, but the old Harrison humor is shining through, so it's worth reading even if you have no interest in cars.

The car I currently drive is probably most similar to what Harrison calls the "bubble car". It's a small car, and because of my height I get made fun of a lot.

The car I used to drive in Ajimu was a little more snazzy.