tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5940197.post765684328106298403..comments2024-03-25T21:14:49.666-04:00Comments on Joel Swagman (Reviews / TESOL): The Karamazov Brothers by Fyodor DostoevskyJoel Swagmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14948746083822200906noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5940197.post-53291782878935022582017-03-02T22:52:29.733-05:002017-03-02T22:52:29.733-05:00Yeah I don't know. Either way, it's way t...Yeah I don't know. Either way, it's way too great of a quote not to use, no matter who said it.Joel Swagmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14948746083822200906noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5940197.post-12768947486217296052017-03-02T11:47:07.716-05:002017-03-02T11:47:07.716-05:00O-ho - so you did! I do now recall, yes. Thanks fo...O-ho - so you did! I do now recall, yes. Thanks for the link.<br /><br />"Snatch defeat from the jaws of victory" - I've heard that quite frequently, and wonder if it in fact originates with Duncan. I suspect not.Whisky Prajerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14076228013022881173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5940197.post-6869345825198027652017-03-02T09:39:25.792-05:002017-03-02T09:39:25.792-05:00Yes, I read that way back in 2000.
A roommmate w...Yes, I read that way back in 2000. <br />A roommmate was big into it back then, so I got it off of him, and I was really interested in the 1960s at the time, so it fit my interests perfectly. <br />It was well-written. My only criticism is I think it dipped into cliches a bit. But then there's no use complaining about that, because that's basically what you picked up the book for: to explore 3 different arche-types of the 1960s.<br /><br />In fact I've linked to that book off this blog before.<br />There's a really great quote in that book attributed to Abbie Hoffman. ""The Left has a marvelous ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory." It's stuck in my mind, and I've been tempted to re-use it myself on some of my blog posts. But I can never find it anywhere except for that book. Even when I do a google search, Brothers K is the only place that quote comes up. Maybe that's a sign it's not an authentic quote, I don't know. But it's such a great quote I use it anyway. So when I want to use that quote, I just link to the Google Books version of the brothers K as the link for the citation. As in this post: http://joelswagman.blogspot.com/2016/05/paris-commune-reading-list.html<br />Joel Swagmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14948746083822200906noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5940197.post-70061372060741937592017-03-02T09:11:06.440-05:002017-03-02T09:11:06.440-05:00BTW, now that you've ploughed through this you...BTW, now that you've ploughed through this you might dig <i><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brothers_K" rel="nofollow">The Brothers K</a></i> - eminently more readable and (possibly) relatable.Whisky Prajerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14076228013022881173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5940197.post-7577037683221204352017-03-02T09:04:16.409-05:002017-03-02T09:04:16.409-05:00Oof - no, that was when I slipped into high-gear s...Oof - no, that was when I slipped into high-gear speed-reading mode, stopping and backtracking only when he flourished scenes with a few character oddities. I honestly don't understand this penchant of his to devote such epic length to the "conclusion" - perhaps to refute expectations of genuine (or superficial) conclusion?Whisky Prajerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14076228013022881173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5940197.post-1898881845575917972017-03-02T08:27:47.374-05:002017-03-02T08:27:47.374-05:00Whisky, thanks as always for your comments. There...Whisky, thanks as always for your comments. There's a lot of interesting stuff in here that improves the quality of this blog post tremendously. <br />I don't really have too much to add to your musings, but you've got me thinking about a couple things now.<br /><br />There is definitely a lot in this book, and I may have over-stated the negatives in my review.<br />The primary frustration with my book club was the long police investigation scene, which basically just retread the previous chapters. And the long trial scene, which basically just went over the same ground again.<br />Basically, I guess, the whole second half of the book.<br /><br />What did you think about that whole long trial? Did you feel like you got anything out of it, or was it just worth reading for the way Dostoevsky sets the scene? Joel Swagmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14948746083822200906noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5940197.post-40027865645032845702017-03-02T06:30:06.494-05:002017-03-02T06:30:06.494-05:00You've got me mulling over this business of re...You've got me mulling over this business of reading novels for their arguments.<br /><br />On one level all stories are embodied arguments -- funny stories play to and against expectations, often of a moral nature, either affirming or challenging the listener's preconceptions. A novel's success or failure as an embodied argument lies in its convincing portrait of the psyches that accept the argument's definitions and act it out, with consequences that follow. I'd say <i>Mad Men</i> is closer to Dostoevsky than most of what's passed for exciting contempo-AmLit in the last 20 years. Freud LOVED this novel, and he was an atheist (well ... depending, but mostly). It may just be we are too far removed from the particular historical moment to recognize the moment's arguments as they are playing themselves out in the psyches of these characters. Our own consciousness has been altered and rendered into another, almost foreign entity.<br /><br />Given those conditions, it is marvelous to me that Plato's dialogues retain such powerful appeal to the Western mind after all these millennia. They're "stories" too, after all -- instantly comprehensible to anyone who reads (or hears) them.Whisky Prajerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14076228013022881173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5940197.post-37346440592821067052017-03-02T06:04:50.333-05:002017-03-02T06:04:50.333-05:00The religious worries, the anxiety for signs and w...The religious worries, the anxiety for signs and wonders, pretty but tormented girls (usually on the cusp of "ineligibility") with ever-present men in their parlours -- fathers and sons occasionally sniffing after the same girl. Alcohol wreaking havoc on family life. I think I've said before that in such a religiously steeped environment, where Hell is a constant concern, a person doesn't fall from Grace by half-measures -- they REALLY go off the deep end. The Karamazovs and their neighbors seemed to exist in the same emotional miasma that engulfs that particular ever-present meditation.<br /><br />I also like how "pre-Internet" Dostoevsky is in all his books. People obsess over things when they're apart, then come back together to discover the other person has changed unexpectedly, almost unaccountably. Often his heroes are troubled by the sense that they suspect they know others better than themselves, only to discover themselves wrong on both counts.<br /><br />Not that I do a lot of Dostoevsky re-reading -- C&P is the only book I've read twice. Russians are best read while trapped in an airplane for a very lengthy flight.Whisky Prajerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14076228013022881173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5940197.post-87606192293996346062017-03-01T21:01:37.308-05:002017-03-01T21:01:37.308-05:00Yeah, sorry, I guess it was a pretty long review. ...Yeah, sorry, I guess it was a pretty long review. In my defense, there's a lot in this book, and it's tough to do a short review.<br /><br />My edition was translated by Connstance Garnett in 1912. Apparently this was the first English translation.<br />I'm sure just about any other translation would have been better. But this was actually readable enough. Aside from the artificially sounding dialogue, my big complaints weren't actually at the prose level. I was more frustrated by how slow the plot moved.<br /><br />I think you're right though, the real value of the novel is just on the little psychological explorations of all the episodes. <br />And for that, there's a lot in here. Way more than I had time to get to in this review. (The schoolboys was just one of many little episodes I never got around to talking about in this review.) <br />But it also requires a very patient reader to get through all of it.<br /><br />Just out of curiosity, which parts in particular were similar to the stuff in your hometown?Joel Swagmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14948746083822200906noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5940197.post-19146602277223748422017-03-01T17:49:01.963-05:002017-03-01T17:49:01.963-05:00Ye cats - a Dostoevsky-length (and, perhaps, inspi...Ye cats - a Dostoevsky-length (and, perhaps, inspirationally structured) review!<br /><br />I read it over several flights to and from California, when my parents lived there. Many of the interactions between characters seemed similar to the sorts of stuff that took place in the prairie hometown of my childhood, so reading the massive book was never a slog for me.<br /><br />Who was the translator, btw? Ignat Avsey did the OUP translation, which made all the difference in the world for me. The prose was so much more fluid than other translations (and probably not as "faithful" to Dostoevsky's Russian).<br /><br />If you're reading it for the arguments, then, yeah, that's going to be a very long slog. Most philosophy of religion texts just include The Rebel/The Inquisitor sections, and leave it at that, which better suits readers of a brusque, combative disposition. To my eyes the deeper appeal of the novel lies in the psychological exploration he devotes to arcane episodes, some of which seem to have little bearing on the "mystery" (such as it is). There's a really troubling meditation on evil schoolyard behaviour amongst little boys that's really stuck to my brainpan.Whisky Prajerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14076228013022881173noreply@blogger.com